Curse

Koudelka · Aug 19, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I seem to be having the exact opposite problem - casters set to defense who will not engage enemies that are attacking the party.

In this shot you can see the party taking on a group of margonites. The two healers are operating normally, but olias who doesn't have any heals on his bar is sitting back and watching.

And just to show that its not a case of him being slow off the mark, this is the same combat 15 seconds later

Ah, I know why that is happening. As you have flagged your heroes out of range, only the defensive ones will come and keep you alive. You'll have to move closer to them before the offensive ones attack. I have noticed this for a long time, I think before the update.

Shursh · Aug 19, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

in response to the OP, i did have a problem like that.

yesterday i was grouped with two guildies and Mehnlo. we were doing the quest that is right before you get to Gate of Madness in NF. we were AT LEAST 1.5 aggro bubbles away from the nearest mob. Mehnlo runs toward the mob, casts some healing spell, then aggros it (i believe it was a single monolith). insane, never seen a henchie aggro something so far away - we weren't even engaged in combat at the time, just standing there for a minute or two.

anyway, that was my experience.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 19, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I seem to be having the exact opposite problem - casters set to defense who will not engage enemies that are attacking the party.

In this shot you can see the party taking on a group of margonites. The two healers are operating normally, but olias who doesn't have any heals on his bar is sitting back and watching.

And just to show that its not a case of him being slow off the mark, this is the same combat 15 seconds later

Mine does the same thing. While flagged they often refuse to do anything. They are schizophrenic, sometimes they rush up but more often than not they refuse to do a damn thing. I am really getting fed up with how slow Anet has been with correcting these issues. The solution is easy - revert back to the original hero AIs before the recent updates and slowly implement the new ones. I believe they throw to much into the hero's brains at once and they dont know what to do anymore.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 19, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koudelka

Ah, I know why that is happening. As you have flagged your heroes out of range, only the defensive ones will come and keep you alive. You'll have to move closer to them before the offensive ones attack. I have noticed this for a long time, I think before the update.

Sorry for the double post but i had to add, the heroes are NOT out of range. They are in exact range to cast spells on the enemy. If healers are close enough while flagged there to heal, the necro is PLENTY close to target the enemies surrounding the tank. I should know, i have done what they are doing in that picture many times with no issues.... BEFORE the AI that is... Now i can't do it anymore. Makes pulling things in certain places next to impossible.

Scythe O F Glory · Aug 19, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Yep my Zhed on guard with a nuking build decided to run almost off my radar and wand people, casting no spells (none disabled)

Draikin · Aug 19, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushiels_Scion

Sorry for the double post but i had to add, the heroes are NOT out of range. They are in exact range to cast spells on the enemy. If healers are close enough while flagged there to heal, the necro is PLENTY close to target the enemies surrounding the tank. I should know, i have done what they are doing in that picture many times with no issues.... BEFORE the AI that is... Now i can't do it anymore. Makes pulling things in certain places next to impossible.

Try setting your casters to aggressive in that case, since that will now approximate the original aggro circle of heroes wielding a staff/wand that were set to "Defend" before the update.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 19, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Try setting your casters to aggressive in that case, since that will now approximate the original aggro circle of heroes wielding a staff/wand that were set to "Defend" before the update.

Um that would cause more problems than it would solve. 1 because they'll attack at random and run off (which some seem to do as it is even when on guard) they'd just do it even more.

Not to mention, of course I have tried it. It was really really stupid thing to do. the simple answer if for Anet to correct the mistakes because no PERSON is doing anything wrong.

cellardweller · Aug 19, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koudelka

Ah, I know why that is happening. As you have flagged your heroes out of range, only the defensive ones will come and keep you alive. You'll have to move closer to them before the offensive ones attack. I have noticed this for a long time, I think before the update.

Prior to the update, they would attack anything thing they could cast on without leaving their flag, now they will only cast if they are flagged within the earshot - this is the problem. Moving them closer doesn't help as it means that their casters can reach your backline without moving into melee range of the warrior.

Changing the range of defensive heroes back to what it was is the better solution. It wasn't broken before and the change has caused nothing but problems.

Widowmaker · Aug 20, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

lol, well the new AI certainly makes DD a whole new challenge, babysitting a group of demented heroes/henchmen that run around like headless chickens certainly is... fun?

No, wait...

Annoying, yes, that's the word I was looking for. Annoying.

Lina especially is doing a sterling job of emulating Kilroy.

Nude Nira · Aug 20, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Anet too busy playing TF2.

AOD_EaSyKiLL · Aug 20, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

No, they are downloading the Warhammer Online Preview Weekend beta

Draikin · Aug 20, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Changing the range of defensive heroes back to what it was is the better solution. It wasn't broken before and the change has caused nothing but problems.

It was broken, in fact the current defensive range of caster heroes is the same range that melee heroes had all along. The old AI caused casters on "Defend" to rush into battle while your melee heroes/henchmen were still standing idle (remember the complaints about monk henchmen rushing into the frontline). The only issue here is that this defensive range may be too defensive for most people since they're not used to working with it, so a possible solution for that is to extend the aggro range of "Defend" for all heroes to something like 1.7 or 1.75 times normal aggro range instead of 1.5. Anything more than that and they'll start acting like Devona and other melee henchmen which currently have double the normal aggro range.

cellardweller · Aug 20, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

It was broken, in fact the current defensive range of caster heroes is the same range that melee heroes had all along. The old AI caused casters on "Defend" to rush into battle while your melee heroes/henchmen were still standing idle (remember the complaints about monk henchmen rushing into the frontline). The only issue here is that this defensive range may be too defensive for most people since they're not used to working with it, so a possible solution for that is to extend the aggro range of "Defend" for all heroes to something like 1.7 or 1.75 times normal aggro range instead of 1.5. Anything more than that and they'll start acting like Devona and other melee henchmen which currently have double the normal aggro range.

You've described issues with the melee ai - the caster AI was functioning correctly. If melee ai is broken the solution is fixing them, not to make the caster just as broken.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 20, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

The old AI caused casters on "Defend" to rush into battle while your melee heroes/henchmen were still standing idle (remember the complaints about monk henchmen rushing into the frontline).

But aggro range wasn't the problem, the problem was how they used touch skills and PBAoE skills.

A simple work-around was to remove touch skills and PBAoE spells from caster heroes, but a better solution would have been for ANet to smarten up the AI so casters would run out of melee range after having run in to use touch skills/PBAoE spells.

Artdeux · Aug 20, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

A nerf to H/H is a buff to PUGS.

Go Anet go!

Draikin · Aug 20, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've described issues with the melee ai - the caster AI was functioning correctly. If melee ai is broken the solution is fixing them, not to make the caster just as broken.

Keep in mind that there was no "correct" setting for the defensive range of heroes, so it made sense to equalize it towards the lower range. Judging from the feedback here people would prefer the range to be set to the defensive range that casters originally had, but reverting the AI update isn't required to fix that problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

But aggro range wasn't the problem, the problem was how they used touch skills and PBAoE skills.

That's a different issue altogether, and you can disable those skills now to prevent them from running in.

enter_the_zone · Aug 20, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artdeux

A nerf to H/H is a buff to PUGS.

Go Anet go!

Nothing in this universe, or the next, could buff your average PUG to within 50% of a decent H/H party. Even with all these stupid AI mistakes ANet seems to love so much.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 20, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

That's a different issue altogether, and you can disable those skills now to prevent them from running in.

I don't think it's a different issue at all, as heroes will not run to melee distance without such skills (provided they're armed with ranged weapons). Also I do know that Zhed would run in to melee range even when Lava Font was disabled, but when I removed it from his bar completely he stopped. That was however before the latest update, haven't tested since.

Basically heroes will use the highest-prioritized spell they've got, and will move to whatever distance (within range) they need to use it - but they won't move back to their original location afterwards. In other words, touch skills & PBAoE skills = tanking casters.

Draikin · Aug 20, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I don't think it's a different issue at all, as heroes will not run to melee distance without such skills (provided they're armed with ranged weapons). Also I do know that Zhed would run in to melee range even when Lava Font was disabled, but when I removed it from his bar completely he stopped. That was however before the latest update, haven't tested since.

It's a different issue because it has nothing to do with aggro range, and the AI usage of PBAoE skills has been updated:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Update

Heroes with ranged weapons equipped will no longer move into melee range when a point-blank area-of-effect skill is equipped but disabled.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 20, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

It's a different issue because it has nothing to do with aggro range

What a coincidence as I'm saying that the problem with tanking casters has nothing to do with aggro range.

(But it's nice to see that they fixed the "will try to use disabled PBAoE skills" bug, even though it doesn't fix the "caster stays and tanks after having used PBAoE skills" problem)